while at the dealer....

[tmoody]

while getting the laundry list of items that i have had pending for the last few months FINALLY resolved, it was interesting that there just happen to be 3 NISSAN engineers at this dealership in Nashville the days my car was in the shop. the statement being that NISSAN is reviewing each car's setup that comes in for the front tire issue due to the camber of the tires being out of alignment. Now, out of the three, a little japanese guy was there and his english was not very good, but i thought i would share what was "translated" to me in our conversation.
First, the entire wheel issue stems from a "miscommunication" of sorts from when the cars were shipped from Japan. Apparently, in the conversion process, some calculations (prepared by the Japanese) were "estimated" by the Americans. This had resulted in a variety of off-camber issues with the front ends, the worst case seen was off by some 50%. the cars were believed to have been set at a "0" when actually should have been a "-2 or -4" to compensate for the wheel camber as the car continues to power forward. I noted that was all fine and well, I just wanted it fixed. He noted that everyone having this fix, should almost feel like they are driving a different car. I did feel a very noticeable difference as a result of the change in the setup.
Interestingly, however the Japanese engineer (very much more so than the Americans) was very adamant about the use of the softer tires on the Z. When I asked if a "harder rubber" tire setup would be satisfactory on the car, he made his objections very clear. His bottom line statement was that the softer rubber tires were "vital" to the cars performance characteristics under what he termed "enthusiastic driving". He noted that it was extremely important to maintain a soft rubber setup (he noted any tire rated 160 or below...Bstones RE40's are 140). Testing showed that under "enthusiastic" driving/cornering conditions, harder rubber tires greatly prohibited the performance of the car and it was prone to loss of control. He said that the specified tires had an average life of about 17K-20K miles. while this may not be the amount of wear we may be looking for, it was acceptable for the way the car is supposed to be driven.
additionally, he also made the comment that this car "is a toy". he noted that it was never intended to be a daily driver car, but rather a weekend car or similar. he noted that NISSAN is working together with the owners to continue to improve the car as they see drivers spending more time in the cars as they suspected. i told him that i would be happy if he gave me a G35 coupe as a daily/second car along with the Z. he smiled and shook his head noting that he prefers driving the Z to the skyline (or coupe).
anyway, bits of the general conversation yesterday. we talked and went over the car for a little over an hour.

[2003z]

very interesting, so its the camber as well as toe?

[Boomer]

Originally posted by tmoody
while getting the laundry list of items that i have had pending for the last few months FINALLY resolved, it was interesting that there just happen to be 3 NISSAN engineers at this dealership in Nashville the days my car was in the shop. the statement being that NISSAN is reviewing each car's setup that comes in for the front tire issue due to the camber of the tires being out of alignment. Now, out of the three, a little japanese guy was there and his english was not very good, but i thought i would share what was "translated" to me in our conversation.
First, the entire wheel issue stems from a "miscommunication" of sorts from when the cars were shipped from Japan. Apparently, in the conversion process, some calculations (prepared by the Japanese) were "estimated" by the Americans. This had resulted in a variety of off-camber issues with the front ends, the worst case seen was off by some 50%. the cars were believed to have been set at a "0" when actually should have been a "-2 or -4" to compensate for the wheel camber as the car continues to power forward. I noted that was all fine and well, I just wanted it fixed. He noted that everyone having this fix, should almost feel like they are driving a different car. I did feel a very noticeable difference as a result of the change in the setup.
Interestingly, however the Japanese engineer (very much more so than the Americans) was very adamant about the use of the softer tires on the Z. When I asked if a "harder rubber" tire setup would be satisfactory on the car, he made his objections very clear. His bottom line statement was that the softer rubber tires were "vital" to the cars performance characteristics under what he termed "enthusiastic driving". He noted that it was extremely important to maintain a soft rubber setup (he noted any tire rated 160 or below...Bstones RE40's are 140). Testing showed that under "enthusiastic" driving/cornering conditions, harder rubber tires greatly prohibited the performance of the car and it was prone to loss of control. He said that the specified tires had an average life of about 17K-20K miles. while this may not be the amount of wear we may be looking for, it was acceptable for the way the car is supposed to be driven.
additionally, he also made the comment that this car "is a toy". he noted that it was never intended to be a daily driver car, but rather a weekend car or similar. he noted that NISSAN is working together with the owners to continue to improve the car as they see drivers spending more time in the cars as they suspected. i told him that i would be happy if he gave me a G35 coupe as a daily/second car along with the Z. he smiled and shook his head noting that he prefers driving the Z to the skyline (or coupe).
anyway, bits of the general conversation yesterday. we talked and went over the car for a little over an hour.

Why has it taken a year to tell us? I am not going back to soft rubber and when do we get a TSB on the new alignment specs? I thought I bought a car, not a toy, and I will continue to lessen the ride harshness, regardless of the engineer's statements. If Nissan is proceeding to make the ride less harsh, so be it. I welcome it, but remain sceptical. We need those alignment specs yesterday, did he tell you what they are, and when the dealers will start implementing them? I hate to be right, but Nissan is transparent and slow as molasses.

[tmoody]

the only thing i could tell was that this issue is/has been monitored regarding a cumilation of the repairs/efforts made on the car. obviously, i don't know everything about what's going on, but the engineers did mention that the issue dealt with the toe-in settings of the front end but that the camber/tire wear was also affected (i'm sure during sporty cornering) as a result of the conversion factors.
as with anything, i don't think that it's an issue that everyone's going to pick up on, so NISSAN could "fix" or "adjust" the issues when owner's bring their cars in for maintenance or what have you. i am not saying that they would deceitfully do it, especially now that they are "voluntarily" replacing the tires BUT (as you know) they are replacing after they first do the tire swap and alignment fix. for some people, that's been enough (in there eyes) but i am sure that the noise/growling will resurface and they'll follow up accordingly. you never know, i've talked with a few people that had more miles than i did (12,500), that had no clue as to what i was talking about.
as with the "toy" statement, i took away from the comment that this car is a sports car and will need to be "adjusted" more than your average sedan and/or daily commuter.
like i said, as with anything, nobody's going to just give us anything. if we have issue, and follow up, i am sure that NISSAN will continue to respond in good faith.

[Steve Zzz]

Originally posted by tmoody

additionally, he also made the comment that this car "is a toy". he noted that it was never intended to be a daily driver car, but rather a weekend car or similar.

Interesting post, but the statement you quote above is just ludicrous. No manufacturer is going to build a relatively low priced "enthusiasts" car and produce them in mass quantities if the intent is for the car to not be a daily driver. The Z is a fun car, but it's certainly not anything exotic or pricey, so I would guess that the vast majority of these cars are daily drivers and I certainly don't think that Nissan would have expected anything different .

His comments may be his opinion, but I feel very confident that it's not the position of Nissan that the Z is a toy and not a daily driver.

[NSANY]

I'm confused. The front end is only adjustable for toe, not camber nor caster. The front end suspension parts are stamped by a machine to the same spec -- one after another. Aside from some physical tolerances, how can camber be THAT different between cars? I would expect that unless they redesigned something, that all cars within a given production run would exhibit the same characteristics.

What exactly did they tell you they are researching? Are they on a fact-finding mission, or are they planning something? If they're planning on making fixes, I doubt they'll issue a TSB for the 03's, since it would no doubt involve a significant amount of work.

Did I miss something here?

:confused:

[Boomer]

Originally posted by tmoody
the only thing i could tell was that this issue is/has been monitored regarding a cumilation of the repairs/efforts made on the car. obviously, i don't know everything about what's going on, but the engineers did mention that the issue dealt with the toe-in settings of the front end but that the camber/tire wear was also affected (i'm sure during sporty cornering) as a result of the conversion factors.
as with anything, i don't think that it's an issue that everyone's going to pick up on, so NISSAN could "fix" or "adjust" the issues when owner's bring their cars in for maintenance or what have you. i am not saying that they would deceitfully do it, especially now that they are "voluntarily" replacing the tires BUT (as you know) they are replacing after they first do the tire swap and alignment fix. for some people, that's been enough (in there eyes) but i am sure that the noise/growling will resurface and they'll follow up accordingly. you never know, i've talked with a few people that had more miles than i did (12,500), that had no clue as to what i was talking about.
as with the "toy" statement, i took away from the comment that this car is a sports car and will need to be "adjusted" more than your average sedan and/or daily commuter.
like i said, as with anything, nobody's going to just give us anything. if we have issue, and follow up, i am sure that NISSAN will continue to respond in good faith.

Some dealers are not replacing tires in good faith, others are doing the rotation which doesn't work. Many owners have given up, too much time in the shop or can't get problems resolved. Some of them spoke as you did with complete faith. It did not happen for them even though they were loyal Nissan owners. I have owned 5 Datsun/Nissans and just bought an Acura TL instead of an Infinity G35 as I had planned earlier.

I will replace/ rebuild the Z's suspension if I have to, but I won't spend another dime on the S-Tune or other Nissan part that wasn't original equipment. I already paid for a sports car with a high performance suspension, I don't plan to hand over more $ to Nissan to repair their mistakes. NNA has proven itself to have lost touch with their dealer network and consistent, good service is not as prevalent as it used to be.

The only reason I am sticking with the car is I have a very good dealer here, and there are other good dealers with integrity in my area. It is not true of some dealers in other areas as demonstrated by the 85+ page of tire wear comments over at my350.com. You may wish to read some of the posts. I've read them all. The toy comment stands by itself, it is not a misnomer and it reflects how out of touch Nissan was/is in marketing this car. 39,000 2003 350Zs is not limited production. The Honda S2000 is a limited production at 10,000 or less per year and is a weekend "toy". The Z doesn't qualify and the comment by the engineer is plainly misinformed and we are not in a happy situation with Nissan on this car.

Boomer--my opinion, use it or lose it, I don't care.

[tmoody]

boomer- believe me, i understand what you are talking about and i too have had the questions about NISSAN's commitment to the buyers. because some of the problems that have surfaced, and the problems/issues i was having with the dealer in dallas where i purchased the car, i have gone back and forth over the past few months on whether or not to just get rid of the car and not spend any more time or money on efforts to resolve. with this first step of the bag of issues being addressed, i've decided to give NISSAN a second chance. i've read where others have had the fixes but the issues have come back. i am hoping that NISSAN is realizing that sopme of these issues are not just a few random events that occur BUT in fact, like you mentinoed, an issue with the car in general. hopefully, this and other issues are something that will be addressed in any/all owners dealings with all of us owners. i do agree that NISSAN has been very slow to react to a lot of the "outcries" that the owners have made, but hopefully they are starting to listen?
interesting that you brought up the TL, because that was one of the cars that i was (am?) looking at as a replacement for the Z. Two totally different cars, in spirit, but something that i thought i would be "happy" with by trading the Z. i figured that maybe the quality of service that i had experienced thus far was indicative of what one got at "conventional" car mfrs. and that one had to step up to a "luxury" vehicle to get better treatment. while this shouldn't be the case, it does seem that we, as Z owners, are going through some undue stress/issues about the car. this is my first Nissan, and first sports car, so admittedly, i am going through the process and learning as i go.

[Boomer]

I would have replaced the Z with the TL had my wife not agreed to my replacing parts of the Zs suspension to get it right. I have already vowed to buy the Konis, forget S-Tune, no more $ for Nissan. I will, if forced, get a camber/caster kit when available. After driving the TL, I remember how satisfying a Sports Touring suspension can be and the Z suffers by comparison because of the lousy ride.

I will be driving the Z very little until some issues are resolved; the tire problem(jmark has received word that a fix is coming, don't buy the S-Tune yet); the ride(Konis are on the way); and any other issue that shows up under warranty repair that Nissan refuses to address. As much as I love/hate the Z, I am reaching the end of my patience with it. If Nissan continues to address issues only when we owners raise **** in the media and fax corporate headquarters, I will sell it and buy my choice before the preorder existed, an RSX-S. I know I fit, I can take it for a test drive before buying, yada, yada. In short, I will stick with upscale sports models with the exception of Infinity. The TL purchase put that G35 Sedan purchase plan to rest.

[Pooh]

Boomer,

I have a 2001 3.2TL with 40K miles. Car still runs like a new car. Driving all day is a pleasant experience - the Bose system even works like it should. Service has been very good. The free loaner car policy makes it very easy to get work done. Mine has a lot of pep, but the new ones are more powerful. When driving the TL, I do miss the balanced feeling of a RWD. Hope you get your Z operating up to your expectations. The combination of a 3.2TL and a 350Z in your garage can give you a whole lot of automotive fun.

[Boomer]

Originally posted by Pooh
Boomer,

I have a 2001 3.2TL with 40K miles. Car still runs like a new car. Driving all day is a pleasant experience - the Bose system even works like it should. Service has been very good. The free loaner car policy makes it very easy to get work done. Mine has a lot of pep, but the new ones are more powerful. When driving the TL, I do miss the balanced feeling of a RWD. Hope you get your Z operating up to your expectations. The combination of a 3.2TL and a 350Z in your garage can give you a whole lot of automotive fun.

Wow! We must have been separated at birth, Pooh. First a 350Z Brick 5AT and now a 2004 TL 5AT as well. We must be very smart or crazy, who knows?

Yeah, I am really impressed with the TL , 270HP, 238 LBS TQ and funneled through a 5AT. Car and Driver said it would be a better car if it were rear drive, but my take is the AT makes it unnessary. The TL is a luxury sports sedan, not an M5, so I think it drives great w/front drive and I've owned front drive sports coupes/sedans since 1984 and I like them. This new one is especially nice with great power and a wonderful sports touring suspension, heated seats, it snowed on us in Ark. and the car whizzed along very calmly. An interesting fact is that it is quite heavy, 3557 lbs, but doesn't feel like it. If BMW made a front driver, it might feel just like this one does. The G35 is a nice car, but I like the TL better for what we needed. When I found out the new G35 AWD was coming out, I thought it might be the deal, but the ride, drive, cost and standard equipment sold us on the TL.

It has DVD-Audio, XM radio, tilt and telescoping steering wheel(I need one on the Z) and comes in a Deep Green Pearl w/very comfortable parchment leather seats. Green is my favorite color and this color is close to the BRG I had on my 65 TR4. If you get tired of your 2001, try this one, I think you'll like it. Its good to hear from you again and we still have our Zs, even with the trials and tribulations. Boomer